Interviews
On Friday, February 20th, barnesandnoble.com welcomed Howard Blum to discuss THE GOLD OF EXODUS.
Moderator: Welcome to the barnesandnoble.com Live Events Auditorium. We are pleased you could join us online to discuss THE GOLD OF EXODUS.
Howard Blum: A pleasure to speak with you. I look forward to your questions.
Rita from Oyster Bay, NY: Your work has encompassed so many different investigations -- what lured you to this subject?
Howard Blum: All my books are tied together in that they are character-driven stories. What first fascinated me about the story I tell in THE GOLD OF EXODUS was Larry Williams and Bob Cornuke. These are two modern-day Indiana Joneses who at great personal risk and with great daring sneak into Saudi Arabia and solve an ancient biblical mystery -- only to find a modern political one. How could I not want to tell a story about two such men?
Ren from San Jose, CA: What sort of geographical surveys did you do to determine that this was the actual Mt. Sinai?
Howard Blum: There are two sorts of evidence that help make the case that this is Mt. Sinai. One is biblical evidence -- that is, everything the Bible says should be at Mt. Sinai is at the mountain Jabal al Lawz. Additionally, there's extra biblical evidence in that remnants of Midianite culture, such as pottery and the relics of an ancient fortress city, have been found in the area, and this shows that there have been ancient civilizations in the region at the time of the Exodus. Thirdly, there's the textual evidence in the Bible itself, which clearly states that when Moses fled from Egypt he went to the land of Midian, married the daughter of Jethro, a Midianite priest, and tended Jethro's flock at Mt. Sinai, which also was in Midian.
James from Lake Tahoe: I have one word -- proof! What proof do they have that Mt. Jabal al Lawz could be Mt. Sinai? And why has the location been assumed to be elsewhere? Thanks.
Howard Blum: First, let's discuss the proof: What one finds at that mountain is what the Bible says should be at Mt. Sinai. This includes a scorched peak, a cave beneath the summit where Moses slept, the brook that runs down the side of the mountain, a plain in front of the mountain where a million Israelites could have camped for a month, as well as such man-made objects that Moses ordered to be constructed, such us the twelve pillars, one for each of the tribes of Israel, that surround the base of the mountain, an altar site at the base, and most provocatively, another altar site with a petroglyph that is a rock drawing of a cow not far from the mountain, and archaeologists have found this important because cows are not native to Saudi Arabia, and they have speculated that this could be the altar site of the golden calf. Now as for the second part of the question, the site in the Sinai Peninsula is based on nothing but folk myth. It was first chosen by the mother of the Emperor Constantine, Queen Helena, who had a dream and woke up and decided that this was the Mt. Sinai. Most tellingly of all, when Israel had control of the Sinai Peninsula after the Six-Day War they sent teams of archaeologists to the site to see if there were any remains of any Israelites who would have encamped there for 13 months, and they found -- nothing. Not one artifact, not one grave, not one piece of pottery.
Tucker from Flint, MI: Hello Mr. Blum. I'm curious about this -- how did the two explorers find each other, Williams and Cornuke? They seem pretty different.
Howard Blum: You're right, they are different, and that's what made them such a good team. Williams was a self-made millionaire. He made his money taking risks in the commodities market, and he was also twice the Republican candidate for Senate from Montana. When he decided that he was going to sneak into Saudi Arabia, a country where if they catch you they cut off your head, he realized he would need someone he could count on in a jam. James Irwin, the astronaut, had introduced Williams to Cornuke and had told him how Cornuke had saved someone's life in a blizzard at Pike's Peak. When Williams began thinking seriously about sneaking into Saudi Arabia, he decided he'd be a lot safer if he took Cornuke with him.
Spoon from Florida: Has your book caused any sort of uproar among religious scholars? Thank you.
Howard Blum: Well, what's most interesting is that American academic scholars, people at universities such as Harvard, Princeton, and Johns Hopkins, have described the information in the book and the photographs that are depicted there as exciting and provocative. In this week's Newsweek Hershel Shanks, the editor of the authoritative Biblical Archeology Review, calls Jabal al Lawz "the most likely site of Mt. Sinai." What is needed now is for scholars, scientists, and archaeologists to be allowed into the kingdom, to be allowed to go to the mountain and to use modern scientific methods to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that what these two adventurers found is in fact Mt. Sinai.
Polly from Lincoln, NE: I enjoyed reading THE GOLD OF EXODUS. It reads like an action-adventure novel -- hammerhead sharks, hookers, etc. What are you working on now?
Howard Blum: First, I thank you Polly for your kind words. This weekend I'm working on John Sayles's first draft of the screenplay for Castle Rock. I'm going over that in great detail. I'm one of the producers of the movie, and we are trying to come up with the best script possible so we can attract the best director possible. Someone who will see this as an adventure story with both spiritual and political significance.
Friday from Mobile, AL: I'm curious, Mr. Blum. Are you particularly religious? Why did you decide to cover this story right now? Cornuke and Williams's discovery happened about ten years ago, no?
Howard Blum: Their first trip to Mt. Sinai was about nine years ago, but what makes it significant now is the fact that they found at that site a military installation that was not completed until January 1st of this year. And this military installation could play a significant role as the current situation in the Middle East becomes a much more combative and frightening reality. As for my religiosity, while I'm not a particularly religious individual, I think the moral precepts that were established at Mt. Sinai are one of the cornerstones of Western civilization and influence all of us regardless of our religions.
Arlene from New York City: Other than Williams and Cornuke, what other sources did you use to cover this story? Did you ever make it into Saudi Arabia?
Howard Blum: I used a variety of sources, all of which are detailed at great length in the back of the book in a specific chapter. These sources included biblical scholars and archaeologists, members of the Israeli government and intelligence service, and also U.S. government officials and members of the U.S. government military and CIA. As a reporter for The New York Times, I had developed relationships in Israel, and I traveled in Israel and Lebanon but did not go to Saudi Arabia.
Terrence Barson from Berkeley, CA: Was the United States aware that Mount Jabal al Lawz was going to be turned into a military base? How long has it been there?
Howard Blum: In 1981 the Saudi government went to the U.S. Air Force and Congress and asked for permission to hire U.S. firms to build a defensive air control system that would surround the kingdom. There was a great deal of debate about this in Congress, and it was fully approved after Congress was assured that this was a defensive system, and the Saudi government agreed to pay American defense contractors $5.6 billion. This system, now known as Peace Shield, was not completed until January 1, 1998. In the 17 years that it took to complete the system, Peace Shield has been significantly upgraded so that it now has offensive capability. This means that if there were ever to be a war between the state of Israel and Saudi Arabia, any attack by the Saudis on Israeli territory would be coordinated in part by the radar installations on the top of Mt. Sinai. And perhaps most ironic of all, the state of Israel would have no choice but to attack Mt. Sinai and take out these military installations.
Mark from Oakland, CA: How did Larry Williams and Bob Cornuke sneak into Saudi Arabia? That sounds like a story in itself.
Howard Blum: It certainly is. The long story is told in THE GOLD OF EXODUS. Here's the short story: Basically, they forged a letter from a Saudi prince inviting them into the country, then faxed it to the Saudi consulate in London, and this phony letter convinced the Saudi consulate to issue them travel visas.
Ruth from Denver, CO: Did you find that when you were writing the story you experienced the same sense of discovery as the archaeologists?
Howard Blum: To a significant degree, and I must admit a surprising one, yes. Most affecting to me was my coming to realize that the Bible was a true story. By this I mean that it was based on historic events; that Moses was a real man; that the Exodus did take place; that Mt. Sinai was a real mountain where something happened that transformed a slave nation into the Jewish people; and that moral precepts were conceived at Jabal al-Lawz that affect and influence us to this day.
John from Phoenix, AZ: Many archaeological digs attach themselves to some legend, like the recent find of the Tomb of Mithras, or even Troy, for funding reasons. Philanthropists who know little about archaeology are more likely to fund something they have heard of, like Mt. Sinai, rather than give it to some dust-bowl excavation in eastern Turkey. Did this team play into that by naming this Sinai? Or is it the real deal? How do you know?
Howard Blum: This is the best candidate we have to be Mt. Sinai. The evidence is presented in the book and in the photographs we have in the book. It is not simply my reporting or Cornuke and Williams's discoveries, but it is also the opinion of noted scholars. Again I refer to the statement in Newsweek this week by the editor of the Biblical Archeology Review that "Jabal al-Lawz is the most likely site to be Mt. Sinai." I hope after you read the book, some of your cynicisms and doubts will be assuaged.
Chaz from Brooklyn, NY: Reading THE GOLD OF EXODUS certainly gives you the "you are there" feeling. How did you manage to accomplish that when you actually never visited the site? How much of the content of THE GOLD OF EXODUS is embellishment?
Howard Blum: One of a reporter's jobs is, I believe, to create this "you are there" feeling. At the same time, his responsibility is not to embellish but rather to report accurately. To accomplish both these tasks, I had to spend a great deal of time talking to Cornuke and Williams and U.S. military officials who have been at the site until I was convinced that I was telling a story that was both exciting and accurate. And as you will see, there is a note on sources for each of the chapters to tell the reader just what a specific chapter was based on.
Jay Grelen from Mobile, AL: No deep question here. I'm a newspaper reporter who once trained with Bob Cornuke for a climb up Mt. Arat with him and Jim Irwin and others. I was with
The Denver Post then. I'd lost track of Cornuke until just now, when I stumbled upon this chat. I last talked to him shortly after Larry Williams published THE DISCOVERY OF MOUNT SINAI. Can you tell me if he is still in Colorado or California or how I might contact him? Thanks.
Howard Blum: Bob Cornuke is living in Colorado Springs, and his wife is expecting twins literally any moment now, so if he's not at the hospital, perhaps he is reading this chat.
Montanna from Albuquerque, NM: Were they looking for gold, or were they looking for Mt. Sinai when Williams and Cornuke set out?
Howard Blum: When they set out, they were looking for gold. By the time their adventure was over, by the time they had stood on the top of Mt. Sinai, by the time they had come to believe that the Exodus was a true story, they underwent a spiritual transformation. Bob Cornuke most dramatically was so moved by this experience by standing on the spot where he believed God handed Moses the Ten Commandments, that he has become a born-again Christian.
Mercy from Texas: Were Cornuke and Williams biblical scholars? What sort of training did they undergo before taking off for their journey? Did they keep it a secret from friends and family?
Howard Blum: Cornuke and Williams were not so much scholars as adventurers. But to prepare themselves for the expedition they did meet with biblical scholars. Before they went looking for Mt. Sinai, they wanted to have a good idea of what they should find if the mountain they were going to was indeed Mt. Sinai. And in the course of putting together this checklist of biblical landmarks, they became, if not biblical scholars, very familiar and conversant with the Book of Exodus. As for their families, Williams's wife and children were well aware of what he was doing. They had become accustomed to his many great and perilous adventures.
Michael from Dublin, PA: This whole story seems so outlandish to me, but maybe because I've never heard of Mount Jabal al-Lawz. Do you think it's merely a coincidence that it's become a top military stronghold?
Howard Blum: I think it was chosen by the Saudi government because it is the highest peak in the area, and that gives it an important strategic advantage. At the same time, it's perhaps interesting to note that at Mt. Sinai, God warns the Israelites that if they disobey his commandments, if they dishonor the covenant He has made with them, He will destroy them. And now at the tail end of the 20th century, Mt. Sinai again could very well be involved in destruction aimed at the state of Israel.
Bill Menkes from Greeley, CO: How long were Cornuke and Williams in Saudi Arabia? If they went in on forged visas, wasn't anyone who saw them suspicious of their reasons for entering the country?
Howard Blum: They went in under the pretense of doing oil business, and since Williams was a commodities trader, this proved to be an effective cover when they were in relatively big cities like Tabuk. Once they were in the desert, they just had to avoid Bedouins and Saudi military patrols. And that story is told in great detail in THE GOLD OF EXODUS.
Holly from Clayton, MO: I heard the movie rights to THE GOLD OF EXODUS were already sold. Is that in fact true? Who bought the movie rights? Do you know anything about its production?
Howard Blum: The movie rights were bought by Castle Rock Entertainment. John Sayles, who has twice been nominated for an Oscar for screenwriting, is writing the screenplay. John Malkovitch is one of the producers, and with a little luck it should be out during Christmas in the year 2000 in theaters all over the country.
Blake from Davidson, NC: So if they didn't find the gold, where do you think the gold could be?
Howard Blum: The entire mountain is now part of a Saudi military complex. In building this military facility, the Saudis did a great deal of excavation. It is my belief -- and the belief of many serious scholars -- that the Saudis found artifacts of the Exodus during this excavation and that this will be shared with the world in a museum that they will be opening in Riyadh in the year 2000.
Jim from Albany, NY: Are you still in contact with Williams and Cornuke? How are they doing? I enjoyed THE GOLD OF EXODUS.
Howard Blum: Williams and Cornuke are now going around the country talking about the book, and as I understand it we will all appear on the "700 Club" program on March 4th. Also, "NBC Dateline" is producing a segment where we will appear together.
Brian from Hoboken, NJ: So I hear that "60 Minutes" is trying to get into Saudi Arabia. Where do they stand now?
Howard Blum: I would think that the current political situation in the Gulf complicates the ability of "60 Minutes" to get into Saudi Arabia, in the short term at the very least. If the Saudis are not allowing the U.S. Air Force to use facilities in the kingdom that were built by the U.S. government, I'm not very optimistic about the ability of "60 Minutes" to convince the Saudis to open up an archaeological site for their investigation, at least until the current crisis in the Gulf is solved.
Darwin from Columbus, OH: Obviously Cornuke and Williams feared for their lives during this whole experience. How about you? In researching THE GOLD OF EXODUS, did you ever feel like your life was in danger?
Howard Blum: No is the short answer. The longer answer is that writing this book was such an exciting experience that I would go to my desk in the mornings and it was almost like I was in the desert reliving the Exodus in the heat, in the sand with a million Israelites making their way toward Mt. Sinai. My only real fear was the fear that I would never be able to write the next page. I didn't fear any of the various intelligence agencies who were monitoring Cornuke and Williams's lives. I just feared my editors.
Moderator: Thank you so much for joining us this evening, Mr. Blum. It has been informative, fun -- and of course, a great pleasure! We hope you will chat with us again!
Howard Blum: I look forward to speaking with you all again. And I've enjoyed hearing your questions and trying to answer them. And I hope this evening's chat will encourage people to read the book and ask me other probing questions. Thank you.
